Doesn't seem like a mainstream/prominent journalist, more like a guy with a blog. But it may be the kind of thing that eventually gets verified by mainstream outlets.
Thank you. This was incredibly informative. I did not know the IBA corruption and Russian connection and how it tied into Russian disinformation and right culture war nonsense. Imane Khelif has been competing for years and has been defeated and this does seem odd.
"But I do want to tell you that our social media systems are specifically designed to make you angry about topics that don’t actually matter that much in the end."
I really like the recommendation in the last paragraph…recognize the lack of importance of the “controversy” to one’s life and then extricate yourself from the rage machine!
It's pretty hilarious that you wrote an article cautioning people against getting sucked into controversy and you land up with more comments than usual, most of which are arguing about the controversy but missing the point of the article entirely.
This doesn't debunk anything I've written? What specifically do you think was debunked?
The point of this post is not "Khelif should/should not be allowed to compete". The point of the post is "notice how Russian influence ops always seem to pop up around divisive social issues" and "notice that social media systems are trying to get you addicted to outrage".
Quillette claims throughout the article that "there's no overlap in male and female T levels after early adolescence" and that the only way a woman could possibly have testosterone levels inside the male range is if she's intersex or doping. But if you look at the chart included in the article, you can see that's not true. At the age of 20, there are a small number of female outliers whose T levels are the same as a low-T man. Olympic athletes tend to be outliers in a lot of ways, including this one.
There continues to be no evidence that Khelif has 5-ARD or PAIS. (If she had PAIS, her external genitals would have been partially masculinized. A doctor would have noticed that sometime during the 6 years she's been competing in high-level boxing tournaments.) If Khelif has a Y chromosome, the only condition that matches her phenotype is total, rather than partial, androgen insensitivity, which gives no athletic advantage. Look up total androgen insensitivity syndrome on Wikipedia for some photos that illustrate what women with this condition typically look like.
If she can beat the best female boxers due to her unfair advantage, how come she came in 17th and 33rd in the 2018 and 2019 women's lightweight world boxing championships?
This would mean internal testes are present, which would result in a typical male puberty. While it is understandably difficult for someone in this situation, it is not fair for this person to compete in the female category.
If she had 5-ARD, she would have a flatter chest and probably more masculine facial features. If we assume for the sake of the conversation that Kremlev is telling the truth, the only intersex condition Khelif could have is total androgen insensitivity syndrome, which would give her no athletic advantages over other women. Look up total androgen insensitivity syndrome on Wikipedia for some photos that illustrate what women with this condition typically look like. Khelif's masculine appearance is due to genetics and the fact that she's an Olympic boxer, not an intersex condition.
This is what Caester Synema has and led to a controversy many moons ago. Born with ambiguous genetalia that looked like a vagina. Grew up in a poor country without access to a lot of modern medicine. Raised a girl, but went through a male puberty. I do feel for people who end up in this situation. They are assigned female at birth and don't always figure out their condition.
I wouldn't be surprised if a number of elite female athletes have this condition. It's such a huge boon to athleticism that you are basically putting evolutionary pressure on female sports to select for this specific dsd. I think anyone with XY chromosomes shouldn't compete in women's sports. It sucks for trans people and people with 5-ard and other dsds that get XY people assigned female at birth. But male puberty confers so many benefits to elite level sports that you are muddying the waters for people who don't go through male puberty.
Hi Jeremiah, I liked that you made this article about something broader (how social media functions) rather than merely focusing on the occasion of Khelif. Also how you showed, directly or indirectly, a better and deeper way of approaching a topic instead of just picking sides. I think this can be useful to the reader—at least, I hope so. My only objection is to what you said about the inevitability of how social media works. I think changing the design of existing social media, or at least developing other social media with a different design, is possible. But that’s another, sociopolitical, story.
An update: There is now one journalist claiming to have seen the test results: https://www.3wiresports.com/articles/2024/8/3/0d4ucn50bmvbndhhqjohaneccoqueq
Doesn't seem like a mainstream/prominent journalist, more like a guy with a blog. But it may be the kind of thing that eventually gets verified by mainstream outlets.
Thank you. This was incredibly informative. I did not know the IBA corruption and Russian connection and how it tied into Russian disinformation and right culture war nonsense. Imane Khelif has been competing for years and has been defeated and this does seem odd.
"But I do want to tell you that our social media systems are specifically designed to make you angry about topics that don’t actually matter that much in the end."
Remember, it's bad on purpose to make you click!
I really like the recommendation in the last paragraph…recognize the lack of importance of the “controversy” to one’s life and then extricate yourself from the rage machine!
It's pretty hilarious that you wrote an article cautioning people against getting sucked into controversy and you land up with more comments than usual, most of which are arguing about the controversy but missing the point of the article entirely.
People will find a way to be outraged about the latest culture war even when
A: They'd never heard of whatever the topic was a week ago
B: There is no conceivable way it could ever impact their life
C: They have literally just read a plea not to fight about stupid shit designed to made them mad
The pervasive, sinister influence of russia seems to sneak into every corner of politics and culture nowdays.
A completely legitimate debunking of Infinite Scroll.
I hope Jeremiah reads this and others do as well. Quillete is great.
https://quillette.com/2024/08/03/xy-athletes-in-womens-olympic-boxing-paris-2024-controversy-explained-khelif-yu-ting/
This doesn't debunk anything I've written? What specifically do you think was debunked?
The point of this post is not "Khelif should/should not be allowed to compete". The point of the post is "notice how Russian influence ops always seem to pop up around divisive social issues" and "notice that social media systems are trying to get you addicted to outrage".
Quillette claims throughout the article that "there's no overlap in male and female T levels after early adolescence" and that the only way a woman could possibly have testosterone levels inside the male range is if she's intersex or doping. But if you look at the chart included in the article, you can see that's not true. At the age of 20, there are a small number of female outliers whose T levels are the same as a low-T man. Olympic athletes tend to be outliers in a lot of ways, including this one.
There continues to be no evidence that Khelif has 5-ARD or PAIS. (If she had PAIS, her external genitals would have been partially masculinized. A doctor would have noticed that sometime during the 6 years she's been competing in high-level boxing tournaments.) If Khelif has a Y chromosome, the only condition that matches her phenotype is total, rather than partial, androgen insensitivity, which gives no athletic advantage. Look up total androgen insensitivity syndrome on Wikipedia for some photos that illustrate what women with this condition typically look like.
If she can beat the best female boxers due to her unfair advantage, how come she came in 17th and 33rd in the 2018 and 2019 women's lightweight world boxing championships?
According to the IBA, Khelif has XY chromosomes, presumably a DSD is present, probably 5-ARD https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/5-alpha-reductase-deficiency/
This would mean internal testes are present, which would result in a typical male puberty. While it is understandably difficult for someone in this situation, it is not fair for this person to compete in the female category.
> According to the IBA
Correction: According to Umar Kremlev, noted Russian, who may have invented the whole thing because Vladimir Putin told him to.
If she had 5-ARD, she would have a flatter chest and probably more masculine facial features. If we assume for the sake of the conversation that Kremlev is telling the truth, the only intersex condition Khelif could have is total androgen insensitivity syndrome, which would give her no athletic advantages over other women. Look up total androgen insensitivity syndrome on Wikipedia for some photos that illustrate what women with this condition typically look like. Khelif's masculine appearance is due to genetics and the fact that she's an Olympic boxer, not an intersex condition.
This is what Caester Synema has and led to a controversy many moons ago. Born with ambiguous genetalia that looked like a vagina. Grew up in a poor country without access to a lot of modern medicine. Raised a girl, but went through a male puberty. I do feel for people who end up in this situation. They are assigned female at birth and don't always figure out their condition.
I wouldn't be surprised if a number of elite female athletes have this condition. It's such a huge boon to athleticism that you are basically putting evolutionary pressure on female sports to select for this specific dsd. I think anyone with XY chromosomes shouldn't compete in women's sports. It sucks for trans people and people with 5-ard and other dsds that get XY people assigned female at birth. But male puberty confers so many benefits to elite level sports that you are muddying the waters for people who don't go through male puberty.
What if they didn't go through male puberty? Khelif has breasts. She obviously went through female puberty.
They're small, but they're there, similar to most female boxers. For comparison, look at these photos of her and Amy Broadhurst:
https://sports.yahoo.com/boxer-beat-imane-khelif-2022-113027914.html
Hi Jeremiah, I liked that you made this article about something broader (how social media functions) rather than merely focusing on the occasion of Khelif. Also how you showed, directly or indirectly, a better and deeper way of approaching a topic instead of just picking sides. I think this can be useful to the reader—at least, I hope so. My only objection is to what you said about the inevitability of how social media works. I think changing the design of existing social media, or at least developing other social media with a different design, is possible. But that’s another, sociopolitical, story.